To prove my point I will make 5 observations after looking at some statistics. That's right you touchy-feely types. An eye-test is one thing, but statistics make vision legit. Attached you will find statistics for the '92 and '12 teams. For the '92 team it is the individual stats from the 1991-92 NBA season they had just completed before the Olympics. For the '12 team it is the stats from this past 2011-12 NBA season. A couple notes are that Laettner was left off my '92 spreadsheet because he played college that year and let's face it was more of a ceremonial player than anything. And Magic's stats are from the '90-91 season because he retired just before the '91-92 season began. This may cost the '92 team a couple points. Also, the current roster is with Blake Griffin and without Anthony Davis even though the opposite will be true in London. A huge performance from Davis could get the '12 team a couple more points. Finally, the method to find player age is not 100% correct but close enough and the same for both teams.
Speaking of age brings me to my first observation: The original Dream Team was not old! Are you kidding me? Take a look, other than Bird, Kobe is the oldest player on either roster. Magic was the only other '92 player over 30. As you can see the average age of the '92 team was 29 compared to 26 for the current team. And while I've noticed great players may have their best scoring outputs early in their career, their overall game and championships or championship opportunities tend to come around later in their career. Just because Bird and Magic were ending their careers doesn't speak for the other 9 members who were right smack in their prime. Let's just take a closer look at Bird, the oldest member of the '92 team. I am so sick of everyone saying he couldn't do anything but lay on the floor at this point in his career! He averaged more points that season than Chris Paul, more rebounds than all current members other than Chandler, Love, and Griffin, and more assists than any current member other than Williams and Paul (both pgs). Wait, did I just point out Bird had better numbers than LeBron in rebounding and assists? Why yes I did. And obviously we haven't addressed the fact Larry shot 41% from distance that year as well. Boy those '92 guys were washed up!!!
Observation 2: John Stockton is far better than anyone today gives him credit! I just read something that said when Stockton was guarding anyone on the current roster let's just "iso" that player and let him take Stockton to the rim. Are you out of your mind?? Just because the guy looks like he should've been a stock broker and not one of the top 3 PGs in NBA history doesn't mean he can't defend. In fact, the guy was a freakin defensive machine. Take '92 for instance...Stockton averaged 3 steals a game! I'm not sure if you realize how many that is so let me put it in perspective for ya. That is better than anyone on either roster in this Olympic matchup and Stockton himself was only at 2.2 for his career. I'd love to see Williams, Paul, or Westbrook drive against Stockton. Sure they'd score because that's what players do, score, hello! But I guarantee "old" John would pick them clean and make them look silly a few times as well. He certainly wouldn't be a liability on defense. And offensively, oh my, Stockton leads either roster in assists at nearly 14 a game (!!!) and three point % at 41%. Those numbers speak for themselves. Stockton was a beast not a liability.
Observation 3: The '92 team was more complete. Without going on to a later observation I'm not just pointing out the obvious lack of center depth the '12 team has. It's more than that. At point the Dream Team had the 2 best all-time. For their career and in that season both averaged more than 10 assists per game. Impressively, Chris Paul is 3rd on the career assists per game list, but under 10 as he was this season. And of course Johnson's ability to rebound and post his opponent is unmatched. At shooting guard just do this...compare Jordan's numbers to Kobe's off my spreadsheet. There's no comparison. The current team would have to bench Kobe and play LeBron at shooting guard to measure up to MJ. Of course the '12 team would have to do that at almost every position to match up. At small forward there is a slight advantage for 2012, at least at first glance. Not much balance though, you know? Too many small forwards for 2012. How can LeBron, Durant, and Melo all play the same time? Guess you could do it, but defense gets weak quickly. And really is it an advantage? I already pointed out Bird's advantages over these three, Pippen takes them on in every category except the 3 point line and scoring, and even Mullin averaged more steals a game then all 3, shot just as well as any of them, and scored over 25 a game. Do I really even need to cover power forward and center? Actually that takes us to...
Observation 4: The '92 team is dominant in the post!! This observation is so easy my daughter Holly could write about it. But, it still needs to be made since easy baskets are key to great offense. And let me tell you, the Dream Team would get a ton of easy baskets. The '12 team has 3 guys over 50% FG's. The 92' team...7 players. The power forwards and centers on the Dream Team overwhelm the current roster. Each scored at least 23 and grabbed 11 per. Each shot at least 52% from the field and 70% from the line. Only Love comes close to measuring up with impressive #s in scoring and rebounds. And defensively is just ridiculous. The block averages of Robinson and Ewing make you salivate if you love the famous line, "rejected!" I'd love to see LeBron, Kobe, and Durant attack the hoop with the Admiral standing there and his 4.5 blocks per game waiting. Honestly, who would post up on the current roster other than Love and be consistently successful? Then ask yourself the same question about the '92 team. Exactly. Not even close, which is why some people are saying..."this isn't the real 2012 dream team without Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, and Dwyane Wade.
Observation 5: Put whoever you want on the today's team and it wouldn't matter! To illustrate this point I've made an alternative spreadsheet with the 3 prior players on the current roster and 3 other players off. As you can see all gaps between the two teams get closer. But, in all cases except 3 point % the '92 team is still better overall. Wade and Bosh really don't help too much statistically, but Howard is the guy that could be a difference maker. While his rebounds and FG% are impressive, Howard's blocks, FT%, and points are disappointing compared to Ewing and Robinson. It's easy to see why Howard isn't averaging a few more points these days...he can't shoot. When a person thinks back and envisions Ewing with the knee pads and sweat sinking to the floor it's crazy to think 70% from the line and 3 blocks a game, but that's him in '92 people.
And really, overall, that's what we have to think about. This isn't Jordan and Pippen in '98 on their last hurrah. Or Stockton to Malone trying to defeat the latter in the Finals. It's not Robinson deferring to Duncan in '99 over Ewing's Knicks. No, this is Barkley before TNT, Drexler before the Rockets, and Chris Mullin when he was...uhh...whoever he was. And this doesn't take away from 2012. I'm pulling for them, will watch their games, and expect gold. But in a matchup with '92 it isn't happening.
Just Fink About It!
p.s. I thought I could attach an excel document, but can't. I'll email the stats if you would like them or maybe someone can enlighten me on how to attach. Here is my best shot...
age
|
ppg
|
rebs
|
asts
|
stls
|
blks
|
fg%
|
ft%
|
3pt%
|
|
Paul
|
27
|
19.8
|
3.6
|
9.1
|
2.5
|
0.1
|
0.487
|
0.861
|
0.371
|
Williams
|
28
|
21.0
|
3.3
|
8.7
|
1.2
|
0.4
|
0.407
|
0.843
|
0.336
|
Westbrook
|
23
|
23.6
|
4.6
|
5.5
|
1.7
|
0.3
|
0.457
|
0.823
|
0.316
|
Bryant
|
33
|
27.9
|
5.4
|
4.6
|
1.2
|
0.3
|
0.430
|
0.845
|
0.303
|
Harden
|
22
|
16.8
|
4.1
|
3.7
|
1.0
|
0.2
|
0.491
|
0.846
|
0.390
|
James
|
27
|
27.1
|
7.9
|
6.2
|
1.9
|
0.8
|
0.531
|
0.771
|
0.362
|
Durant
|
23
|
28.0
|
8.0
|
3.5
|
1.3
|
1.2
|
0.496
|
0.860
|
0.387
|
Iguodala
|
28
|
12.4
|
6.1
|
5.5
|
1.7
|
0.5
|
0.454
|
0.617
|
0.394
|
Anthony
|
28
|
22.6
|
6.3
|
3.6
|
1.1
|
0.4
|
0.430
|
0.804
|
0.335
|
Griffin
|
23
|
20.7
|
10.9
|
3.2
|
0.8
|
0.7
|
0.549
|
0.521
|
0.125
|
Love
|
23
|
26.0
|
13.3
|
2.0
|
0.9
|
0.5
|
0.448
|
0.824
|
0.372
|
Chandler
|
29
|
11.3
|
9.9
|
0.9
|
0.9
|
1.4
|
0.679
|
0.689
|
0.000
|
26.2
|
21.4
|
7.0
|
4.7
|
1.4
|
0.6
|
0.488
|
0.775
|
0.308
|
|
age
|
ppg
|
rebs
|
asts
|
stls
|
blks
|
fg%
|
ft%
|
3pt%
|
|
Johnson
|
32
|
19.4
|
7.0
|
12.5
|
1.3
|
0.2
|
0.477
|
0.906
|
0.320
|
Stockton
|
29
|
15.8
|
3.3
|
13.7
|
3.0
|
0.3
|
0.482
|
0.842
|
0.407
|
Jordan
|
28
|
30.1
|
6.4
|
6.1
|
2.3
|
0.9
|
0.519
|
0.832
|
0.270
|
Drexler
|
29
|
25.0
|
6.6
|
6.7
|
1.8
|
0.9
|
0.470
|
0.794
|
0.337
|
Mullin
|
28
|
25.6
|
5.6
|
3.5
|
2.1
|
0.8
|
0.524
|
0.833
|
0.366
|
Pippen
|
26
|
21.0
|
7.7
|
7.0
|
1.9
|
1.1
|
0.506
|
0.760
|
0.200
|
Bird
|
35
|
20.2
|
9.6
|
6.8
|
0.9
|
0.7
|
0.466
|
0.926
|
0.406
|
Barkley
|
28
|
23.1
|
11.1
|
4.1
|
1.8
|
0.6
|
0.552
|
0.695
|
0.234
|
Malone
|
28
|
28.0
|
11.2
|
3.0
|
1.3
|
0.6
|
0.526
|
0.778
|
0.176
|
Robinson
|
26
|
23.2
|
12.2
|
2.7
|
2.3
|
4.5
|
0.551
|
0.701
|
0.125
|
Ewing
|
29
|
24.0
|
11.2
|
1.9
|
1.1
|
3.0
|
0.522
|
0.738
|
0.167
|
28.9
|
23.2
|
8.4
|
6.2
|
1.8
|
1.2
|
0.509
|
0.800
|
0.273
|
|
age
|
ppg
|
rebs
|
asts
|
stls
|
blks
|
fg%
|
ft%
|
3pt%
|
|
|
Paul
|
27
|
19.8
|
3.6
|
9.1
|
2.5
|
0.1
|
0.487
|
0.861
|
0.371
|
|
Williams
|
28
|
21.0
|
3.3
|
8.7
|
1.2
|
0.4
|
0.407
|
0.843
|
0.336
|
|
Westbrook
|
23
|
23.6
|
4.6
|
5.5
|
1.7
|
0.3
|
0.457
|
0.823
|
0.316
|
|
Bryant
|
33
|
27.9
|
5.4
|
4.6
|
1.2
|
0.3
|
0.430
|
0.845
|
0.303
|
|
Wade
|
30
|
22.1
|
4.8
|
4.6
|
1.7
|
1.3
|
0.497
|
0.791
|
0.268
|
|
James
|
27
|
27.1
|
7.9
|
6.2
|
1.9
|
0.8
|
0.531
|
0.771
|
0.362
|
|
Durant
|
23
|
28.0
|
8.0
|
3.5
|
1.3
|
1.2
|
0.496
|
0.860
|
0.387
|
|
Anthony
|
28
|
22.6
|
6.3
|
3.6
|
1.1
|
0.4
|
0.430
|
0.804
|
0.335
|
|
Bosh
|
27
|
18.0
|
7.9
|
1.8
|
0.9
|
0.8
|
0.487
|
0.821
|
0.286
|
|
Love
|
23
|
26.0
|
13.3
|
2.0
|
0.9
|
0.5
|
0.448
|
0.824
|
0.372
|
|
Chandler
|
29
|
11.3
|
9.9
|
0.9
|
0.9
|
1.4
|
0.679
|
0.689
|
0.000
|
|
Howard
|
26
|
20.6
|
14.5
|
1.9
|
1.5
|
2.1
|
0.573
|
0.491
|
0.000
|
|
|
27.0
|
22.3
|
7.5
|
4.4
|
1.4
|
0.8
|
0.494
|
0.785
|
0.278
|
Well unlike most topics Kieth, I agree with you 100 percent. I don't really understand why this was even made a story except for the fact that there isn't much going on in the sports world and apparently people needed something to talk about. Also, I am not sure what people expected Kobe to say, no we would lose to those guys every time! Of course he's going to say they could win a game or two. However, in my opinion I am not really sure they would ever beat the team in 92. Now a days people just want to talk about the now and seem to forget about the things of the past. We are all so quick to jump to statements as he's the best closer or most clutch or whatever it maybe. I guess that's where we are now with everything being a 24/7 news cycle. I've got just a few things that I would like to add to this topic.
ReplyDeleteLet me just start with the fact that the 92 team had 11 HOF players and I believe a combined 23 championships. I don't count Laettner as even being on the team, so I throw him out completely. The 2012 team has 7 championships and I will say maybe 4-5 future HOF players. When I breakdown the roster its not even close. There are only 3 guys on the 2012 team that I think would even make the 92 team and that's LeBron, Kobe and Durant. Everyone else on the 2012 team would have a hard time making it. Yes Bird's back was bad and he was about to retire but he's much better than Carmelo, Harden, Love and some of the other forwards. While I was reading the Book of Basketball by Bill Simmons he broke players down based on a pyramid scale. He broke down 96 of the best players in the games history based on his thoughts and stats. Obviously we all know who number 1 is, MJ. I believe the lowest ranked guy was Ewing at number 39 for the 92 team, and of course most the players weren't on the list for the 2012 team. My overall point is you've got 11 of the top 40 players in the history's game on one team and you think they're actually going to lose??
Also IMO everyone on the 92 team was able to carry teams and lead them to the finals and championships. I don't want to hear well IF Pippen didn't play with Jordan he wouldnt have won. Let me take you back to when he had the blazers up by 15 entering the 4th quarter against the lakers in 2000 before they choked the game away. Or when Jordan decided to play baseball for 2 years and he led the Bulls to 50 wins. The players now team up with others and they still can't win!!! Look at my good friend Carmelo who can't seem to luck his way of getting out of the 1st round in the playoffs but 1 time in 9 years!! Are you kidding me?? This is a whole different topic and I better stop before I go totally astray. My point is Bird, MJ, Robinson, Barkley, Mullin, Magic etc were ALL "The Guy" on their teams and were able to take their teams to heights. I just dont see a whole lot of that with today's player. Everyone will say what about Kobe, I would tend to agree slightly, however he did have one of the most dominant players in the game, you may remember him as SHAQ. Just take a look at his stats in those finals, I believe he averaged around 34 and 15…yeah that doesn't help. Also without Gasol coming in 2008 the lakers don't win another title either. Kobe was losing to the Suns before Gasol get there!! Anyhow there are probably only 2 guys that I would say take over games and are "The Guy" Kobe and Lebron.
Alright well I guess that about wraps it up, I dont see the comparisons at all and find it completely laughable. People should just watch some of the old games on NBA TV and see how great those players were and realize there are only 3 guys from the 2012 team that would even possibly be on that 92 team. Great first topic Kieth, I look forward to the next one and I am sure we won't always be agreeing!
Bill Simmons book is definitely something I'd like to see. And 11 Hall of Famers will probably never happen again. And please, don't remind me of the Blazers choke job. I was definitely rooting for them!
DeleteKieth look into allowing unregistered accounts or anonymous visitors add comments, at least until you start getting more regular traffic. And nice job on the first post.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the tip. Should be a go!!
DeleteWhat is your next topic Finknation?!
ReplyDeleteUnsure as of yet. Not sure how frequent the blog will be just yet either. Thought about Penn State but that is a difficult and sad topic. Who am I talking to?
DeleteAgree with everything expect old Jonny boy coulddn't guard Westbrook.
DeleteZach
Its mike. Just testing your anonymous functionality! Mix in some pictures in ur posts for the visual types. The spreadsheet was awesome maybe map it to some color graphs. Just ideas not trying to be over critical...
DeleteI agree. I think the world as got better but the dream teams IQ, and competitiveness would put them over by 15 PTs. The 12 settles for too many jumpers, so the dream team would win by 15 or more.
ReplyDelete